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Is it time to go full Vanilla?

As you know, Minecraft 1.8 has been released.
Around this time, we usually wait a few days for a modding API called Bukkit to release their latest build. This lets us have the map vote plugin, MCBans (to efficiently prevent griefers from joining our community), and CoreProtect (a plugin that allows us to do case-by-case backups without rolling back the entire map).

However, some of you may know that Bukkit has been closed down. Mojang assured us that it wasn't authorized and that Dinnerbone would personally see to Bukkit being updated for 1.8. However, this means that development will be behind schedule with the leadership changes involved. That, and it seems Bukkit will soon be discontinued. Mojang has hinted that it will release its own modding API, however, we don't know when this will be and if it may even come to be.

I personally think it's best we go full Vanilla. That is, to remove our mods and use an un-modded client. First, let's examine the benefits:
- No wait for latest updates.
- Minecraft may or may not perform somewhat better
- Possibility of cheaper hosting (however, this isn't a benefit to us necessarily)
- True vanilla experience

Honestly, the wait period is the biggest advantage in my opinion. However, it's not without problems that we use vanilla Minecraft:
- Grief can no longer be rolled back. Either players must manually fix their builds or if its severe enough, the entire map will be rolled back. Players may or may not lose progress depending on when the grief occurs.
- Voting plugin goes away.
- Possibly harder to check for potential griefers in the database. However, we're also whitelisted so it's not a huge problem.

The biggest drawback would be the inability to fix grief almost painlessly. This may or may not put more pressure on the administration.

So to summarize, would you rather quicker client updates or quick, painless grief fixing?

My vote would be to go vanilla. It will be truer to the vanilla experience in my opinion, a quality of Sitosis that I have come to love. How will you vote?
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Comments

  • Recruitment will have to change in a big way. Only people we already know and trust would be whited-listed. The server will be a lot less open and inviting then it is now. We won't really be able to give people trial runs since we can't undo their damage if they turn out to be asshats.

    It all depends on the kind of server we want. I'm part of the flood of new people from the realm of pzm. Do we have enough people to maintain a healthy community with tighter recruitment? Maybe so. It's hard to say since a lot of people are waiting on 1.8. I feel like we might have a pretty active server when the patch and new maps hits.
  • edited September 2014
    I would like to see first whether Bukkit is really dead. Right now Mojang promised to update it to 1.8.

    Going back to vanilla would make adminning i.e. tracking down griefers and rolling back the damage more difficult and much less timely. This has the potential of driving away existing players. Closing the door for new unknown players would also make this place more stale in my opinion.

    I'm personally against going back to vanilla. However, IF Bukkit really ends up dead, I don't see any other way. Right now, let's wait a bit and see what happens.
  • I'd love to play 1.8 and its new things, but I agree with Jehk27's and asum2's comments. Let's wait a little bit.
    The guardians and other mobs won't run away. Sea horses too. :)
  • I agree with the 3 previous commenters that the lack of griefing protection and other admin capabilities outweight the faster updates. Also, even if Bukkit dies, I can't imagine that noone will create an replacement program. Isn't Mojang making their own right now, or did I misunderstand that?

    "The guardians and other mobs won't run away. Sea horses too. :)"
    They won't run, they will swim away. ;)
  • I'm excited about 1.8, but I think on a public server tracking down griefers is pretty important.
  • Especially with the recent influx, I'd be worried about the potential for griefing. Keep in mind that many joined after my invitation, and I run with an unsavory crowd -- atheists & rascals & pirates & firebrands & iconoclasts -- and I wouldn't trust them a bit.

    Arrr, we have a code, but it be only guidelines, like.
  • edited September 2014
    PZ, after your invitation I was worried that some of the trolls that sometimes come to your forum might join to bother you ingame. I'm glad they haven't done that so far.
    Maybe the application process was too much work for them. :)
  • I'm with Asum2,

    Our lack of grief and instant rollback is one of the best features for sitosis, besides my devilish good looks and handsome beard of course.

    *If we get word that it's going to be delayed for a long period, we can always revisit the topic in that case.
  • I also think that protection from griefing is too important to trade for faster updates. We waited almost a year for the new version. I for one can wait a little longer.
  • I went over a year without joining a server because I was worried about griefers and thieves.
    But I feel truly safe on this server. I'd like to keep feeling that way. I'm happy to wait a bit for the updates.
  • I'd say I'm willing to wait about a month for news on Bukkit. If, as of October 2, there's been no news, I move we revisit this conversation.
  • If Sitosis were to stay precisely as it is right now with the current community and the current server configuration... perfect (or close enough).

    Personally, I am loving the features in 1.8. However, right now is not the time to upgrade, in my opinion. If we wait and see exactly what our options will be in the coming weeks a solution will soon reveal itself.

    P.S. pizike82 ... I thought that was your neck!
  • I agree with waiting a bit. I'd hate to make more work for the admins, and see people driven away if we get griefing. I'm excited to see what I can do with 1.8, but it's not like I can't do that in single-player.
  • I'm on board with justinhsu; I'd rather wait a little (as MCBans and grief protection are awful to be without) but after a month or so it's worth revisiting as there should be more to go on (though no news would itself be news).

    I suspect that Mojang will keep to Bukkit through to 1.9, actually. The first party modding is hotly anticipated, and it would make for an ideal flagship feature for 2.0, which I expect to be a really massive update for fanfare reasons.
  • Interesting, not the reception I predicted. But hey, you've all pointed out some valid concerns. I still hold to my opinion, however, it seems that most people would prefer things to say as is. That said, it's time to discuss the new map :)
    Continue to contribute if you will, but it seems the majority is in favour of things staying the way they are.
  • I tend to agree with josh more, however the true discussion over this is about griefing and grief protection, with the sacrifice being the new update.
    I'd be willing to sacrifice the protection of griefing for the update, if only because I don't feel like playing on the current map.
    Our whitelist is pretty effective in filtering out any griefers, and our sever isn't easy to find. I personally don't mind a well placed griefer every once and a while, (It's part of the multiplayer experience.) but I'm certainly not advocating that we need more; I just never joined for the grief protection. I joined mainly because it was mature and vanilla.
    So, if everyone wants to remain Bukkit for protection, then we should stay. I'm just a little more nonchalant.
  • I wouldn't mind going vanilla until the new map. Can we make the current version a download?
  • No one is suggesting we 'sacrifice' the new update, just that we wait a bit to see what's going down with Bukkit. I know a lot of the Old Guard is champing at the bit to try out the new 1.8 stuff -- to be honest, so am I. But I'm going with justin here; is one month really too long a wait to have 1.8 AND a secure server?
    If nothing has changed come Oct. 1st, I'll join in with the pure vanilla crowd. But really...I waited a year to join in on multiplayer, is one month too much to ask?
  • I see Blobbydude and others have some good points--whitelist, hard-to-find server, mature. I want to add: small number of players.

    So, griefing rate is pretty low--don't forget: lightnings, exposed lava ponds, creepers and few mobs are our natural griefers.

    If man-made griefing occurs a lot in a new map using 1.8, return to the 1.7.10 (9?) with the protections until newer Bukkit comes out.

    I don't mind waiting for a month or so...
  • We may not have much choice.
    Looks like there's a legal storm brewing and it's not just as simple as "Mojang Owns Bukkit"

    http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s81jha

    and

    http://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/comments/2fhxfk/bukkit_dmca_to_clear_things_up/

    Basically a contributor to Bukkit allowed his code to be used under certain conditions. Those conditions weren't being obeyed, but he's ignored that for two years until now, when he's invoking breach of agreement and slapping a DMCA on Bukkit.

    A lawyer could argue that he didn't claim breach two years ago and has therefore forfeited any rights, but IANAL.

    In the short term, I don't see an easy way for Mojang to get around this (short of buying the code that that person contributed) so it might be a few months before we see a 1.8 Bukkit release - if ever. On the other hand, Mojang may just freeze bukkit and push ahead with their own API.
  • While I enjoy the simpler means of investigating and reversing griefing that Bukkit provides, if there is strong enough interest for a new map/1.8, we have the option of temporarily closing applications and running 1.8 with a new map.

    @Jehk27, yes, the map can be made available for DL
  • Pretty sure we've done that at least once in the past.
  • Wait, some servers are on 1.8. They're modded... how?
  • So Mojang has finally stepped in and said something about the leaky bukkit mess, not sure it helps, as they still don't know what to do about it, but acknowledgement nonetheless.

    http://forums.bukkit.org/threads/mojang-and-the-bukkit-project.309715/
  • What a mess. At this point, I think it's probably best if bukkit just stays dead.
  • then there are only two choices. give up on 1.8 and all further updates ( for several years at least ) which will sooner or later lead people to abandon this server, or to give up on bukkit and try to solve the griefer problem the old-fashioned way, which is risky because it might fail.
    .
    So it seems, it is either certain failure over long term, or risk of failure on a much shorter time scale.
    .
    Or, there is perhaps a third option - finding a different anti-griefing package.
    .
    I myself find the first option the worst. So I would prefer, as other people here suggested, going 1.8 without bukkit and closing the applications temporarily till either bukkit becomes available again, or an adequate substitute is found, which ever comes first.
  • On a side note. What is this Wesley Wolf person's motivation to destroy the entire thing ?
    Does he hope for a kind of financial gain, or is it the "highway" part of "my way or the highway" ? Can't quite wrap my head around it.
  • Some men just want to watch the world burn.
  • A suggestion: reset the current vote. Reword the question to something like "Time for a new map, even if it does not include anti-griefer protection?", then let it simmer for a week or two.

    Then abide by the will of the majority.

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